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Krotan
Nov 25, 2009 8:53:21 GMT -5
Post by whitetail on Nov 25, 2009 8:53:21 GMT -5
I am tanning a deer hide in Krotan and on the bottle is says 2-4 days. The last time I did one I left it in the tan for 3 days and had a problem with patches of hair coming lose which I think came from the skin being wet too long. Does anybody use Krotan or know anything about it that could tell me if 2 days is long enough or should I go 3 days??. I fleshed the hide down before I stuck it in tan and will finish final fleshing in the face after I take it out.
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keith
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Krotan
Nov 25, 2009 9:08:47 GMT -5
Post by keith on Nov 25, 2009 9:08:47 GMT -5
I'm not real familiar with the product, other than it's a whole bunch of acids in a bottle. Being that, the length of time in solution shouldn't make any difference, as long as the pH stay's down, say 2.8 or lower. If your pH is down, and you have spots losing hair there's a couple things to look at.
One very important thing is, make sure you have enough solution that the skin can move freely in it, and you don't have it jammed in so there are folds that aren't getting the solution. You need to stir the skin often, especially in the first few hours because of the issue with folds, even in a bath that does have room in it.
If you do this, and still have problems, you need to back up to the skin and it's condition before you put it in the bath. Make sure you get the skin ready as quickly as possible, and do not wet the skin before it goes into the bath, when you do, you're actually diluting the bath, and need to stir the skin a lot more to make sure the water in the hair gets mixed with the solution in the bath.
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Krotan
Nov 25, 2009 18:58:33 GMT -5
Post by heath67 on Nov 25, 2009 18:58:33 GMT -5
Leaving your skin in for 3 days is not the problem, I have left them for a week with no problems. Problems occur with either a bad skin to start with or not "stirring" the solution atleast once a day. You need to pick the skin up out of the Krowtann atleast once each day & change the position of the cape to make sure there is no wrinkles that didn't get reached by the Krowtann. I leave my capes in for atleast 3 days.
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Krotan
Nov 30, 2009 11:26:45 GMT -5
Post by jimtucker on Nov 30, 2009 11:26:45 GMT -5
Leaving your skin in for 3 days is not the problem, I have left them for a week with no problems. Problems occur with either a bad skin to start with or not "stirring" the solution atleast once a day. You need to pick the skin up out of the Krowtann atleast once each day & change the position of the cape to make sure there is no wrinkles that didn't get reached by the Krowtann. I leave my capes in for atleast 3 days. I agree with Heath. He started me using the Krowtan and I have not had many problems. Don't just "stir" your skins pull them out of the buckets and stretch them out. Pull all the folds apart. Then you can put them back in. I hate to say it but I have left skins in Krowtan LONGER than a week with no problems. Just for the info...in MY experience wether it is my water or WHATEVER I need to NEUTRALIZE my hides longer than the directions suggest. Otherwise Krowtan is good stuff.
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Krotan
Dec 2, 2009 12:31:42 GMT -5
Post by whitetail on Dec 2, 2009 12:31:42 GMT -5
Thanks guys for the info. I tanned it and mounted the deer on Saturday. I ran into a problem when I went to put the hide over the form. I almost could not hide over the form. When I pre-fit the hide when it was green yet and had lots of room. I ended up and put it in the refrigerator for 3 hours and loosened it up and got the stretch back in it and fleshed it down hard with the mini flesher. I then thankfully could start mounting at 3:00 p.m. instead of 8:am as I had planned but all went great .
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bud
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Krotan
Dec 15, 2009 23:26:46 GMT -5
Post by bud on Dec 15, 2009 23:26:46 GMT -5
Any one on here have experience with both Krowtann and Liqua-Tan? I am looking for help deciding which to try first as I have never tanned "in house" before it is all new to me
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keith
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Posts: 70
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Krotan
Dec 16, 2009 21:21:18 GMT -5
Post by keith on Dec 16, 2009 21:21:18 GMT -5
Bud, I can't really say about krotan, other than what said above. What I will tell you, as a tanner, i can assure you that there is no one step tan. To actually tan something, you need to go into a pickling solution first, this will charge the fibers so the tanning agent can attach to them. After the pickling is complete, a tanning agent, such as liqua-tan, which is a synthetic tan and fatliqour combined will do a good job of making a leather that is stable and will last for years, it's actually been around for taxidermists since sometime in the 70's, syntans and fatliqours have been used in leather and garment tanning from way before that. Dunking a skin in acid will work as a preservative, so does rubbing "powder preservative" on a skin, how long it will last is the big question. Obviously Heath and Jim use it, personally I'd beware of any product that comes out and is the best thing since sliced bread, then under goes changes almost immediately
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Krotan
Dec 16, 2009 22:41:18 GMT -5
Post by heath67 on Dec 16, 2009 22:41:18 GMT -5
I have used both Liqua Tan and KrowTann, so Bud if you have a question, shoot away & I will try to answer it. Keith, the only people I hear claim that KrowTann "is the best thing since sliced bread" are the naysayers. And you being a tanner, I wouldn't expect you to have anything good to say about it. KrowTann is just like anything else that is new or fairly new, everyone has questions & is unsure of it. Even though it is fairly new to the "industry", it has been around for 20 years, just not marketed until recently. I am sure there was, no I take that back,I know there was lots of questions that I have answered over the years about Liqua Tan. You just didn't hear about them like you do KrowTann because that was before this whole internet. And I am sure when ANY new tan came out, these same questions were asked.
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Krotan
Dec 17, 2009 9:47:52 GMT -5
Post by jimtucker on Dec 17, 2009 9:47:52 GMT -5
I have used them all in the 25 years or so I have done taxidermy...from dry preserve to Tanneries(including Keith who is one of the best) and Krowtann does the BEST job of "tanning" of any of the "home tanning" systems.
I like sending my hides out BUT that costs me more and I am sitting on my thumbs waiting for them to return.
Liqua-Tan is not and never has been consistent with your results. Screw up any step and you will be covered in hair in no time.
McKenzie tan is better BUT it is harsh on your skin. I mean REALLY harsh. Sure I wear gloves but you still get some on you from time to time.
Krowtann is simple, easy and makes a GREAT skin. If you FOLOOW the instructions you will have NO PROBLEM. Even BETTER it eliminates "salting racks" and piles of used salt.
Any time I try a new system I save scraps of skin to "test' the tanning. Liqua Tan, McKenzie tan, Curatan and Krowtann all make a nice finished skin if you have the knowledge of how to break a skin.
Remember this. Any of these methods can screw up as easy as the other, including sending hides to the tannery.. Krowtann has the least steps, therefore is easiest IMO.
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keith
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Krotan
Dec 17, 2009 13:43:47 GMT -5
Post by keith on Dec 17, 2009 13:43:47 GMT -5
Heath, I spend very little time on the taxidermy net, so I don't get into the discussions, the ones I hear are the people using it, and yes, the ones that like it, like you and Jim, really build it up, and it was promoted as being the latest greatest, even if not in those words. What I'm telling you is this, it's not a tan, it's a preservative, and that's fine if you want to do it that way. Oil a pickled and you'll get all kinds of stretch. I hear that the original recipe has either been replaced or supplemented with a new one that actually does go through steps, and that is a positive thing.
I have a lot of customers that do their own capes with different methods and products, we get the heavy stuff and dry tan skins. I get a lot of questions from these customers about their methods, and I hear a variety of experiences from all of them, no matter what the product is, and really, it doesn't matter to me what product they do use because I'm not going to get the work anyway, so I try to help them the best I can with the knowledge I have of the tanning process.
Again, I don't have anything against any product on the market, I don't have anything to sell people and I don't make any commission from a product getting sold. I don't be-grudge anybody for tanning their own capes, I try to help them with it all I can, I'm just telling them what I know from about 25 years in the business.
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Krotan
Dec 18, 2009 12:19:14 GMT -5
Post by jimtucker on Dec 18, 2009 12:19:14 GMT -5
the ones that like it, like you and Jim, really build it up, Just for the record I don't "build it up" and could care less if someone decides to use it or not. I just tell of my experiences with a product. Krowtann makes a clean cape with plenty of stretch and VERY LITTLE shrinkage in the final mount. Less shrinkage than I have experienced from any other product. Is it a "tan"...I don't know and do not care. I won't be wearing any deer capes in the near future. All I know is that a properly prepared Krowtan cape works really good. Just like any other product including dry preserve. It's sort of like Velveeta. All the cheese makers will tell you it's not really cheese...It looks like cheese, it tastes like cheese. works like cheese...do we really care if it is not technically cheese?
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keith
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Posts: 70
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Krotan
Dec 18, 2009 13:25:17 GMT -5
Post by keith on Dec 18, 2009 13:25:17 GMT -5
Now your'e just messing with me Jim, please don't tell me that velveeta isn't cheese I tried to get that point across, maybe it didn't come through, but it doesn't matter to me personally what a taxidermist uses because it doesn't affect me. Yes I do talk to a lot of them that do their own capes, and there are some that love and some that hate every product out there, I do hear some that don't care for krotan, but the majority are very happy with it. Same thing can be said for powder preservative. The biggest customer I have does around 400 deer a year, and powders every one of them, and he's still our biggest customer dollar wise, so that should give you an idea of the volume his shop does. Do I give him grief about powdering the deer? Sure I do, it's good natured, I'd like to see those 400 capes but he's been doing it that way for probably 20 years and it works for him!
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Krotan
Dec 19, 2009 9:59:43 GMT -5
Post by jimtucker on Dec 19, 2009 9:59:43 GMT -5
Now your'e just messing with me Jim, please don't tell me that velveeta isn't cheese According to the US Food & Drug administration Velveeta is "Processed Cheese Food" and we all know they are never wrong. Mayber Krowtan should be called a "Tan Like Process"
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keith
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Krotan
Dec 19, 2009 21:43:45 GMT -5
Post by keith on Dec 19, 2009 21:43:45 GMT -5
First the easter bunny (I found his tail while hunting eggs one time) then santa, now this.................... yet another fond childhood memory............... BLOWN ALL TO BITS!
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bud
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Krotan
Dec 22, 2009 22:03:18 GMT -5
Post by bud on Dec 22, 2009 22:03:18 GMT -5
Thanks all, ;D Goin to give it a shot. Talked quite a bit with a supplier and end user and he pretty much has the same feedback from his customers, some love it some hate it, most feel for the money and time it is a good tool. Also he said that most of the people that try it have reordered several times and that it now outsells most others about 5~1.... I figure it's worth a try.
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